CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the Cavs’ recent win over the Nets, focusing on the challenges faced by coach Kenny Atkinson in managing minutes and expectations.

Takeaways:

• Cavs showed signs of shakiness in the first half post All-Star break.
• Kenny Atkinson faces tough decisions with player rotations.
• Dean Wade’s return is crucial for the Cavs’ defense.
• New players like De’Andre Hunter are making an impact.
• Atkinson’s coaching strategy involves managing player expectations.
• Cavs have a deep bench with multiple playable options.
• Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley are key to the Cavs’ success.
• The Knicks rely heavily on their starters for minutes.
• Cavs’ depth gives them an advantage in the playoffs.
• The Knicks’ advantages against the Cavs have diminished, as the Cavs have evolved significantly since their last playoff matchup with the Knicks.
• Evan Mobley is a strong contender for Defensive Player of the Year.
• Cavs’ analytics support their offensive success as not a fluke.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And we are coming to you guys after the Cavs. 110-97 win over the Brooklyn Nets. That’s the first game after the All-Star break. Obviously, we knew coming into this game that the Cavs would be a little bit shaky, as all teams seemed to be the same way. Coming back off a break.

getting reacclimated into the system, getting acclimated into playing more NBA minutes than they did during the All-Star break. Chris, I know this was a rocky first half, so we’re gonna just omit that from the record, and we’re gonna go into the second half of tonight’s game. A lot of different rotations, a lot of different lineups that we got to see coming into tonight’s game from Kenny Atkinson. We knew that was going to be a big factor when it came to

everybody, almost everybody being healthy and trying to figure out where the calves would lie. And I’ve said this to our subtextures before, I think it’s more difficult for Kenny Atkinson when he has everybody healthy to be able to deviate minutes and figure out where everybody’s going to fit in rather than when they had other players injured and they had to rely on guys to step up into more minutes. Tonight.

What did you see in Brooklyn? What did you see from the players who got more minutes? And what did you see from the rotations and lineup standpoint in tonight’s matchup?

Chris (01:38.2)

it’s still too early to kind of make too much about the rotations, Ethan, and too much, you don’t want to go too deep into the lineup stuff because they’re not at full strength yet. There’s a big piece of this missing. know, Dean Wade is somebody that Kenny Atkinson has raved about throughout the course of the season. He was asked about Dean earlier tonight before the game started against the Nets. And he talked about how they’re so excited.

to get Dean back and how worried he was about the potential defensive slippage that the Cavs would have without somebody like Dean, because he just does so many impactful things, especially at that end of the floor. So until Dean comes back and, you know, gets back to the player that he was before this injury and the minute allocation that he was getting before this injury, it’s going to be hard to predict these things. It’s going to be hard to read.

too much into these things. know, Ty Jerome got a different kind of rotation tonight. He was one of the first guys off the bench. He actually came in at the same time that DeAndre Hunter did the two best friends coming in together. But Kenny said that was more of a product of they needed his ball handling because they knew that the nets were a team that turns over a bunch of teams recently. They knew that the nets were going to crank up the pressure. They knew that

that the nets were going to try and make it as sloppy and uncomfortable for the calves as they possibly could. So I don’t think you can read too much into that. The timing of Ty coming off the bench and being somebody who, who replaced Donovan Mitchell at the seven minute mark. So I just think some of these things remain to be seen, but in saying all of that, you know, it is true that Kenny has some difficult decisions to make.

And before tonight’s game, he said one, it’s what coaches have to do in the NBA. It’s one of their greatest responsibilities is managing minutes, managing expectations, being transparent about roles, divvying up roles that, are going to be best, not just for the team, but for the individual players as well. but he admitted that it was going to be hard and he’s had conversations.

Chris (03:58.49)

with multiple players recently telling them, look, you deserve to play. You have earned an opportunity to play, but you may not play on a certain night. It’s just the way that it’s going to be based on, you know, the things that we’re trying to figure out down the stretch. Shifting more into playoff mode means trimming the rotation, at least in theory. So it’s just about…

getting these guys to understand that, getting these guys to buy into that, and getting these guys into a place where even if they’re in a lesser role than what they feel like they’ve deserved or they’ve earned, that they can still be productive in that particular role.

Ethan Sands (04:45.892)

Yeah, Chris and I think it’s important to note that Kenny Atkinson if I’m not mistaken also made it clear that they expect Dean way to be back for the New York Knicks game tomorrow at Rocket Arena and I know that a lot of people are looking forward to the return of Dean way not only because he has been deemed the Celtics killer he has been deemed secret weapon to Dealing with a lot of these different teams that have length that have the things that have the Cavs have struggled with this season

But I think the Cavs, especially during the buyout market in two-way option and 10-day contract period, have addressed those weaknesses at length. Obviously, we got to see tonight Naquan Tomlin make his NBA debut. And it’s crazy to think about a player that did not play in the high school circuit, did not play in the AAU circuit to be able to make his way all the way to the NBA. That’s something special.

I wrote about that when he was signed. And I think it’s just important to note that when you mentioned Dean Way, and you’ve mentioned this on recent podcasts, his availability is his biggest thing that we’ve looked at for the past couple of years, right? He has not been available for the Cavs in the most crucial points of the season. And it feels like the Cavs wanted to address that more than anything.

Chris (05:59.429)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (06:09.102)

going out and getting players that could fill in that role necessarily if need be. Deandre Hunter being the main one he played the fourth most minutes tonight in the game. And then you also talked about guys like Jovante Green, who is six foot five, but has a seven foot wingspan is known for his defensive prowess as well. So I definitely think Dean Wade has been and will always be until deemed differently. One of the biggest pieces

Chris (06:20.56)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (06:38.678)

of the Cavs making it a deep playoff run and we talked about this after the Boston Celtics series last year. But understanding that the

Chris (06:45.216)

Yeah, I think a couple of things, Ethan, before we move on here. I think one, I don’t know what’s going to happen with Gervonta when it comes to a playoff environment. Like it feels like to me that, you know, if this team is at full strength or close to full strength, that he becomes essentially a specialist. essentially a low minute guy that Kenny just has.

If he needs a certain kind of lineup, he can go to him. If he needs maybe a little bit more physicality on the defensive end of the floor, he could go to him. If he needs more rebounding, know, Javante is a really good rebounder for somebody at, at, at his position, um, his size. If there’s a certain kind of matchup that calls for it, um, it’s just another option that Kenny has. And to have as many playable guys as the Cavs do.

Coming off the bench is a really, really good situation to be in because, you know, JV Picker’s staff a couple of years ago would have killed for that because he was getting into a situation where he’s like, I got like six or seven guys that I can rely on here and that’s about it. Like Kenny’s got 10, 11 guys, maybe 12 that he could theoretically trust, in a seven game series against whoever it may be in the Eastern Conference. So.

Having as many playable options as the Cavs do is a good thing. And having as many playable wings as they do for a matchup against Orlando, Milwaukee, New York, there’s so many wing heavy teams in the Eastern Conference. know, Gervonta just gives them somebody that fits in those kinds of series. In saying that, I do think Kenny’s going to have to find a way.

to get him integrated during the regular season and find minutes for him in the regular season. Because I’m told that the organization told Javante’s people that there’s an opportunity for him to play. Because, you know, there was this whole conversation around the Ben Simmons situation about where does Ben fit? How does he get minutes? Like, why would he go to Cleveland just to sit on the bench when he can get consistent playing time?

Chris (09:05.304)

In LA, he might be able to get 18 to 22 minutes for the Clippers in the regular season. and he might have a chance to, to boost his value and he may have a chance to show that he can fit a specific role. You know, if a player is going to agree to a buyout, they’re going to look for a situation that could be beneficial for them. So I’m told that, you know, the Cavs, not that they promised anything, but they told Gervantes.

people hate like, yeah, we do see an opportunity for him. We do see a role for him. so I do think Kenny’s going to have to try and find a way to get Javante some run here down the stretch. and the other thing is I think the front office did Kenny a really big favor. And I think, you know, the George Nhiang departure is not something that I think we’ve talked about enough.

I think one of the aspects of George’s departure that has kind of gone overlooked is it was probably the most difficult decision that was facing Kenny Atkinson because he knew and people inside this organization knew that George couldn’t play against Boston. And it’s not to say that the Cavs do everything with Boston in mind, but look, they’re the reigning champions. They’re the team to beat in the Eastern Conference.

They are the Cavs biggest threat, but it’s not just Boston. It could be other teams that are made up like Boston that can play five out that have length, quickness, athleticism on the perimeter. and Kenny was going to get into a situation where he was going to tell a very, very important player that he couldn’t play in the playoffs. And that was going to be hard.

And that wasn’t going to sit well with George and it shouldn’t sit well with somebody like that. And, you know, there are politics involved. It was a delicate, chemistry related situation because the impact of George Niang, you know, it went way further than everything that he did for this team on the court during the regular season. And that was going to be a really delicate situation.

Chris (11:29.412)

And the front office took that out of Kenny’s hands as much as the front office benefited from George being included in that trade because they were able to duck under the luxury tax. And they were able to, you know, get DeAndre Hunter for what were the quote unquote expendable trade chips that the Cavs had. You know, yeah, it was the front office doing what they thought was best for the team and what they thought was best for team building.

and their salary cap situation and opening up a roster spot to bring in somebody like Javante who benefits that series. But it was also doing a favor for Kenny, like taking the decision out of his hands. Now I think the toughest decision in theory that he’s going to have to make when it comes to his playoff rotation is, can I play Isaac? How much can I play Isaac? Are there certain matchups that are going to be more favorable for him than others?

Because I think he’s the one, Isaac is the one in this rotation that is in the dicey-est situation when it comes to his playoff minutes. Especially if the Cavs go down to 8. They’ll probably start with 9, I would think, when it comes to the playoffs. But if they whittle that down to 8…

I mean, Isaac becomes the one who is the most logical and the most easy to replicate based on the other options on this team.

Ethan Sands (13:00.944)

And Chris, you make a lot of good points there. And I think while the front office deserves a whole lot of credit, Kobe Altman, as we know, this pass off season got a lot of slack from the fan base on what decisions he was making, whether or not he was going to bring back certain players. Like, I think he deserves a whole lot of credit for the moves that he’s made, not only for Kenny Atkinson, but because all of the players that they now have on their roster.

understand that they have a role to play. They know coming in that they have a certain specialty that can be utilized for this team in particular. Javante Green being a defensive specialist. Isaac Acoril, again, defensive specialist. Naquan Tomlin, a rebounder, a bouncy guy, six foot 10 who can shoot three balls, spread the floor. Obviously we understand that Naquan Tomlin will likely be in the bottom half of the rotation with

Chris (13:58.886)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (13:58.928)

guys like Craig Porter Jr. and Tristan Thompson for the remainder of the regular season. But just having him there is a safety valve for anybody like Jared Allen or Evan Mobley gets hurt. If they want an extra off day, like you have an extra big that they can rely on and know can go and get their own. And the other thing about this that I think is important when you mention just being able to split minutes, again, it goes back to

how Kobe did a big favor to Kobe about having to divvy up minutes in George Nying time. But I again think it’s still difficult with all of the players that he has at his disposal and how close of a relationship he’s built. But as you mentioned, as he said before tonight’s game, that there’s an understanding that this is not just friendships. This is not just anything else. This is about winning. This is about

doing what we all came here to do. This is about getting to the ultimate goal. Eastern Conference Finals is the bare minimum for this team. And then the NBA Finals is where they want to get to. And tonight’s game against the Brooklyn Nets showed that, right? They played a lot of different lineups, a lot of different rotations. We’re not going to get into the grand scheme of those because I agree with Chris. It’s way too early for that. But I do want to highlight the fact that one Deandre Hunter had himself another game that

Chris (14:58.117)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (15:24.932)

can be noticed, especially on the defensive end. was plus eight from the field, but he was nine points, four rebounds, three of 10 from the field, two of four from three, had some big ones down, laid back to back triples where he was able to come down and hit above the break. I think those were the biggest notable pieces from him. But then you also look at the core four in Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, and Jared Allen.

I know we talked a lot about the other three of this team, but Jared Allen deserves a huge amount of credit, not only because he does a lot of things without needing recognition, but he also played the least amount of minutes when it comes to the core four. He played just 25 minutes tonight. And in those 25 minutes, he had 16 points, 20 rebounds, seven on the offensive glass. He was eight of nine from the field and he was a plus 15 on the floor.

And obviously we understand that him pairing with Evan Mobley and him pairing with these guards that are making him look so much better, but there’s been a different activity level when it comes to Jared, when it comes to his success. And I think when you talk about a guy that we’ve both kind of nudged at and Kenny Atkinson has been flow blown about deserving an opportunity to be an All-Star, I think

him showcasing that he can even in a smaller role because as Chris, as you mentioned that during the playoffs, it could be potential that Evan Mobley is seen more at the starting five or not at the starting five as majority five minutes and being able to space the floor with other people. Jared Allen still being able to come in and play his role is going to be huge as you look at different lineups where the Cavs may want to go to a stretch lineup or they go up against a team like

Chris (17:00.228)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (17:18.0)

Thanks.

Ethan Sands (17:18.256)

The OKC Thunder in the NBA finals where they need two bigs to go up against Chet Holmgren and Isaiah Hartenstein I think Jared deserves a whole lot of credit But I also think you can’t go unsaying that Evan Mobley Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell did what they’ve been doing and as Kenny Atkinson put it after the game He expects Jared and Evan to now have double doubles per game because that’s just how good they’ve been playing all year

Chris (17:45.272)

Yeah, mean, think Darius said it best following the game tonight, Ethan. when it comes to Jared and Evan and their nightly impact, especially on the defensive end of the floor, quote, mean the world to us. That’s the way that Darius phrased it. And the success of the Cavs on the defensive end of the floor, like, yeah, getting Isaac Ikoro back from his shoulder issue is going to help and getting Dean Wade back in this rotation is going to help.

DeAndre Hunter has clearly given this team a defensive boost since coming aboard. And all those different factors are going to play into the Cavs being successful on defense and carrying over their play into a playoff environment. But like Jared and Evan are the anchors of this thing. Jared and Evan, like they control the ceiling of the Cavs on the defensive end of the floor.

Protect the rim switch ability, being able to be comfortable out on the perimeter and on the interior staying out of foul trouble. And, know, coming into this week, there was so much conversation about what are the Cavs going to do with their 14th roster spot? Do they need to add another big? And it’s like, they’re at a point where number one, when you get into the playoffs.

48 minutes at the center spot are going to be occupied by both Jared and Evan, provided that they’re healthy, provided that they’re not in fall trouble. The other thing is, there’s just not a big out there that’s available that’s worth signing.

When Mobamba is arguably the best available big, then you just see what you have with your own guy in Neyquan Tomlin. You know what I mean? You just, the buyout market is not necessarily about filling a positional need. It’s about finding somebody that you deem potentially playable. And Javante Green is more playable than somebody like Mobamba. He’s more reliable than somebody like Mobamba.

Chris (19:57.784)

And Naquan Tomlin is just like a lottery ticket. Let’s give him a chance. One, let’s reward him for what he’s done throughout the course of this season with the Cleveland charge. Like he, he deserves an opportunity. He deserves, you know, a bump in pay and a chance to feel what the NBA lifestyle is like. A chance to work with these NBA level developmental coaches, a chance to be around Evan Mowgli, Jared Allen.

Donovan Mitchell, see what a pro does on a daily basis, see how a pro operates on a daily basis, like all those different things. And part of the signing is just rewarding him for that, for what he’s done throughout the course of the season and giving him that different opportunity. The other part of it is like, when there isn’t something that appealing out there, then

just see what you may have and you might find lightning in a bottle. Or if it doesn’t work out, then it’s fine. He just goes back down to the G League and you figure out what you want to do with that spot. If you want to go another 10 day, if you want to an end of season, whatever the case may be. But you know, when you have Jared and Evan, just like Kenny talks about, just like Darius talked about, just like Donovan talked about, you don’t have to worry about the center spot.

You don’t have to worry about the big man group. They got an unlock. Like they’re going to occupy every single center minute that’s available in a playoff environment. I guess that again, provided that they’re healthy and provided that they can stay out of foul trouble and they do it on a nightly basis. Like this is becoming the way that Jared Allen played tonight. No, he doesn’t get 20 rebounds every single night, but the impact that he bet that he had that’s becoming routine.

Evan Mobley doing the things that he does on a possession and possession basis, that’s becoming routine. And that’s a really good situation for a coach to be in to say, all right, that’s one position that I don’t have to worry about.

Ethan Sands (22:12.142)

I agree. And I just think it’s a lot to take in, especially from a coaching perspective, because as we know from previous years, like, Jay Vickers F will be like, all right, we gonna rely on y’all for that’s who it’s gonna be. And to like, to his credit, like, Dave Riegel’s F didn’t have the weapons that Kenny Atkinson has, whether it was they weren’t playing at this caliber, talking about Darius Garland and Evan Opley, or

they didn’t simply have them on the roster, Deandre Hunter is a big one in that case, right? And I think when you talk about a guy like Javante Green, and I know, I feel like we’re doing our due diligence, especially because our podcast that aired yesterday was recorded before the news was announced. So we’re getting all of that information to our viewers and subscribers. When you talk about like the research that goes into somebody like Javante Green.

Coming into tonight’s game, there were 3 players in the 80th percentile or higher in the basketball index perimeter isolation defense, matchup difficulty, defensive playmaking, ball screen navigation, passing lane defense, and rim protection metrics. The other 2 players, Amen Thompson and Alex Caruso. Javante Green also falls into that category. So, let me talk about

Chris (23:31.93)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (23:36.452)

being a player and obviously Cavs fans are in their right to say he’s the same size as Isaac Okoro. But as Isaac Okoro does, Javante Green doesn’t play it to the same size as a 6 foot 5 forward. He has a 7 foot wingspan, he’s a guy that can get up and down the floor, he might be considered one of, if not the most athletic player on the Cavs when he clears waivers and as Donovan Mitchell has said before,

Chris (24:03.942)

Thank

Ethan Sands (24:06.212)

Tonight’s game it kind of feels like there’s no real skepticism about that and I think The biggest thing when it comes to this Cavs team and going into their matchup against the Knicks Again is the fact that they had I believe it’s nine players played 15 minutes or more and then when you look at cross and you see how much the Cavs and the Knicks starters played

Just in tonight’s game alone. I’m gonna read you the players that played 15 or more minutes For the New York Knicks. McHale Bridges played 43 minutes 43 and a half minutes Precious Achua played 46 minutes. Carl Anthony Towns played 42 and a half minutes. Jalen Brunson played 38 and a half minutes. Miles McBride played 42 and a half minutes. Landry Schumet played 17 minutes.

Cameron Payne played 17 minutes and like I just think when you look across and you see the stat line for the Cavs where it’s Evan Mobley 30 minutes, Donovan Mitchell 30 minutes, Darius Garland 28 and a half, Deandre Hunter 26 and a half, Sam Merrill 25 minutes, Jared Allen 25 minutes, Max Trues 24 and a half. Like there is a different level

of allocation and obviously the Knicks to this point in the season are basically used to it, right? But there, to me, I still don’t feel like there isn’t going to come a time where they just burn out, right? And obviously this is Tom Thibodeau’s team, so we understand how much pressure, how much time, how much minutes he gives to historic guys. But coming into the first two games in a back-to-back,

and you have to go into an overtime game against the Chicago Bulls and then you play the Cleveland Cavaliers at home on ESPN the very next day. just think, Chris, especially when you talk about Dean Wade also coming back for the game on Friday against the Knicks, it’s another chance for the Cavs to continuously prove themselves on a nationally televised game in front of a team that

Chris (26:11.899)

Bye.

Ethan Sands (26:29.828)

has especially played to a higher caliber this season. Obviously the Knicks are the third seed in the Eastern Conference. I just want to get into that portion of it and look ahead a little bit and what you think previewing tomorrow’s game against the Knicks in Cleveland at the first game in their quote unquote new arena, which basically just has a new name.

Chris (26:55.142)

Honovan said earlier today, I asked him how important it is for the Cavs to maintain the number one seed in the Eastern conference. And he said, all of that is well and good. And, obviously we would like to be the one seed and have home court advantage throughout. But he said, history has shown that it’s about attrition. it’s about health and it’s about playing your best basketball going into the post season. So, you know, the Cavs aren’t in a situation where.

they’re going to try and win at all cost. And you’ve seen Kenny operate like this throughout the course of the season. There is a bigger picture plan in place to make sure that the Cavs are in a better physical place than they were going into last year’s playoffs. The Knicks are different, right? Like they have to rely on their guys for big minutes in the regular season because…

They don’t have the same kind of bench production that the Cavs do. They don’t have the same kind of depth that the Cavs do. Every team is going to be built differently. The next pathway to success is their starters being great and maybe outplaying the other team’s So they have a couple of guys coming off the bench that they can sort of rely on ish. know, Achua is somebody who comes off the bench most nights.

They have Deuce McBride who comes off the bench most nights, but it’s a little bit tougher. Their guys have to play big minutes. The Cavs guys don’t have to play big minutes. And that’s one of the beauty of, of, mean, if you’re talking about like the different aspects of this team that make it a legitimate contender, and you talk about the different aspects of this team that have allowed them to get to this point where they’re

The number one seed in the Eastern conference, one of the best records in the NBA. It’s the fact that they do have depth and they’ve celebrated their depth and they have a bunch of different guys that can come in and make a difference on a nightly basis. And they just don’t have to run guys into the ground the way that they did last year. And I feel like the Cavs are going to look like a different team in the postseason in part because

Chris (29:18.662)

You know, their players are playing at a different level in part because it’s a new coach with a new system in part because, know, the guys had more belief in this coach and stuff like that. But in part because they’re just going to be in better physical condition. There’s just going to be a different level of, you know, provided they avoid an injury, massive injury down the stretch. There’s just going to be a different level of physical readiness going into the postseason.

And they’re not going to be as worn out. They’re not going to be as exhausted, both mentally and physically. And where do you see that show up? I think that that remains to be seen. I think it’s hard to quantify, but it matters. And it’s something that Kenny clearly believes in and Tom Thibodeau looks at it a different kind of way. The other thing that I’ll say when it comes to, you know, the Cavs and the Knicks is this isn’t two years ago. Okay. Like,

The Cavs are a different kind of team. They’re built a different kind of way. They play a different style. Like there are different things that these opponents, whether it’s New York, whether it’s Milwaukee, whether it’s Miami in the first round, if it is Miami in the first round, whoever it may be that they face in their journey throughout the course of the postseason. Like the Cavs have an offense that

is really, really difficult to deal with for any opposing team, no matter how they, they match up, no matter how good they are defensively. This is the number one offense in the NBA and everything about their deeper analytics says that it’s not a fluke and it’s going to remain that way. Even in a postseason where things slow down, it’s about execution, possessions matter.

weaknesses become a little bit more exposed. This is still going to be a really difficult to deal with offense. And you know, the thing that I wonder about the Knicks is where’s their advantage lie? Two years ago, the Knicks against the Cavs, you looked at it and said, okay, advantage Knicks coming off the bench. Advantage Knicks when it comes to rebounding.

Chris (31:39.554)

advantage Knicks when it comes to just a level of physicality and tenacity and griminess and like the defense of stuff is so close together that it’s almost it might be advantage Cavs but it’s almost negligible. Now those things have flipped. Like I look at the Knicks and I say what’s their pathway to winning? They’ve got an explosive offense just like the Cavs.

but it’s not as good as the Cavs. They don’t shoot the three with a high volume. They shoot a good percentage, or top 10 in the NBA in three point percentage, but they’re middle of the pack or bottom five in three point makes and attempts. And it’s like any team that is going to hang with the Cavs and beat them four times in seven tries in the playoff environment, you better make threes.

You better make the math equations somewhat close. And like, if you talk about the paint battle, they don’t have Julius Randall anymore. We haven’t seen Mitchell Robinson for a long, long time. They don’t have Isaiah Hartenstein anymore. So it’s like, yeah, the Knicks might win the paint battle because statistically they are a better paint team, but it’s by the slimmest of margins. You know what I mean? So it’s like,

If they’re not going to significantly win the paint battle, if they’re not going to significantly win the physicality battle, if they’re not going to significantly win the rebounding battle because they’re a different kind of team, I think what’s their advantage anymore over the Cavs? And I just don’t think the Knicks have the components and I don’t think they have the makeup.

And I don’t think they’re stylistically the same kind of team that is going to be able to beat the Cavs four times in seven tries in the playoffs. I don’t think a couple of years ago, yes, the Cavs were worried about the Knicks and a potential matchup and they had reasons to be worried about the Knicks. Even though people in the organization got really mad at me for writing that. There were reasons for them to be mad because they knew that that was a difficult matchup for them.

Chris (34:04.816)

Cause it was. but it’s just not as difficult of a matchup anymore because the Cavs are a different team and the Knicks, the Knicks are a different team and their pathway to success, their blueprint for success is different than what it used to be. So

I don’t know that they can win the defensive battle against the Cavs. I don’t know that they could win an offensive battle against the Cavs. I don’t think they can win a three point shooting contest against the Cavs. I don’t think the advantages rebounding is significant enough to make up the other gaps. I don’t think they can win the bench battle against the Cavs. It’s just like, I don’t know, man, like.

I don’t look at the Knicks as a team that is a legitimate threat to the Cavs. You know, getting to the conference finals and setting up the matchup against Boston that everybody is expecting.

Ethan Sands (35:00.974)

And it’s funny you say that Chris, because one of our subtexts made us aware to the fact that Nick’s podcast, I don’t think it was even referenced, which one made a distinction that the Knicks would want to try and get the four seed to try and play the Cavs before getting to the Eastern Conference finals, right? And I think that’s an interesting distinction. One, because I think

Chris (35:10.81)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (35:29.652)

Everybody when it comes to the Knicks is praying that Mitchell Robinson comes back and is praying that he comes back to the same standard where he left and Mitchell Robinson really hasn’t been healthy for a very very long time. So I don’t know exactly what that degree would be for him, what standard they’re hoping him to come back at. But the main thought that comes to mind

Chris (35:39.599)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (35:52.998)

Thank

Ethan Sands (35:57.004)

is that they hope that Carl Anthony Towns doesn’t have to play the five and they can try and match him up with Evan Mobley, right? And I think it’s interesting when it comes to that because of, like you mentioned, the offensive battle, the defensive battle. And we’ve already discussed this ahead of this podcast, how difficult it has been and how difficult it is for Kenny Atkinson to acclimate somebody like Dean Way, like…

Everybody that’s been injured like Deandre Hunter back into a team that’s already been winning and as we mentioned the Knicks are the third seed They haven’t had a bad season. They’ve had a decent one Obviously, they’ve won more tough games and they might have liked but I think To have Tom Thibodeau obviously it’s a better understanding of what he’s capable of because Mitchell Robinson has played for him before But Carl Anthony Towns is a new piece

having him play next to Mitchell Robinson, how is that gonna look? And this is not me bashing on the next or anything of that sort. I just think it’s interesting where teams are already trying to find their ways and think of ways to play the Cavs. And I don’t know, and based on everything that you said and I believe as the same, I think it’s also gonna be difficult for those teams, even if the Cavs don’t have the same playoff record or playoff history that might point.

to them having success in those situations. And then there’s two more things, right? I think you mentioned how the front office might want Kenny Atkinson to get more minutes for guys like Javante Green or, well, not necessarily Neyguan Tomlin, more so for Javante Green, because of what may have been agreed upon. And it sounds a lot like last year.

Chris (37:42.373)

you

Ethan Sands (37:50.628)

where front office pieces were like, hey, you should play Dean Wade more, JB. You should play Craig Porter Jr. more. Yeah, you should play these guys more. One, because there were injuries, two, because they wanted to see what they had and what could be for the future. Obviously, the Cavs have a great standing. They’re 45 and 10. But the understanding is there are players on this roster that are still on expiring contracts.

Chris (37:56.708)

Yeah, right for a journey.

Ethan Sands (38:19.482)

There are still players on this roster that don’t necessarily have a full grasp of where they’re going to be next year and whether or not they can be replaced. And I’m not saying anybody in particular, but I’m saying the most important thing for this cast team is putting together a roster that gets rid of the weaknesses that they came into the season with. And Gervonta Green fixes a lot of those and that could be a future thing.

that they could be looking forward to going into next year and beyond, especially depending on how the Cavs do in this playoffs.

Chris (38:56.966)

Just look at this, Ethan. If you go back to game five of the first round playoff series between the Cavs and the Knicks, when the Knicks won the series, they solidified a 4-1 series win. Jeddy Osman played 15 minutes. Lamar Stevens played in that series. Danny Green played in that series. And Keris LaVert was in the starting lineup, playing 37 minutes.

None of those guys are on this roster. Those were guys that, yeah, so those were guys that the Cavs were forced to count on, hoping to get something out of them. Ricky Rubio got played off the court very, very quickly in that series, but that’s the caliber of player that we’re talking about. The Cavs having to rely on needed something from, right?

Ethan Sands (39:30.574)

mean, Lamar Stevens just signed a 10 day.

Chris (39:56.75)

And half of those guys are no longer on this roster. Isaac Ikora got 20 minutes in that game because the Cavs needed someone to come off the bench and give them something. For the most part, it was Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, Jared Allen, Keris Levert, Evan Mobley against the Knicks. They’re not the same team from a couple of years ago. And you were talking about Jovan Tay Green. That’s one example. The key is…

that the Cavs have options, right? So if Isaac isn’t making his shot and New York or whoever it may be in a playoff environment is just not guarding him, then guess what Kenny does? He goes to somebody who is very Isaac-y. He takes Isaac off the floor and he goes to Javon Day Green, who does a lot of the same things that you like from Isaac Ikoro. So it’s like to me,

Some of the guys that come with question marks have other guys that do a lot of the same things that they do that can step into that role. Right? You don’t need as much from Dean Wade. If we’re being honest, you don’t need as much from Dean Wade. He’s not as indispensable as he was two weeks ago before the trade deadline because you have DeAndre Hunter.

Right? You don’t need somebody like Isaac Okoro because if he doesn’t play well, then you go away from him and you go to Gervonta Green and you don’t feel like you’re losing as much defensively because of all those metrics that you pointed out. You know, Sam Merrill, if he’s not making shots, then you can bring in Max Druse and he provides the same continuous movement. He provides the gravity. He gets the attention.

He provides the floor spacing. He can set screens in inverted pick and roll situations. He does a lot of the same things that you like from Sam Merrow. So that’s a really, really good situation for the Cavs to be in, to have so many different options and so many different guys that can fill a specific role that other guys that come with questions, that’s the same role that they fill.

Chris (42:17.646)

And beyond that, know, Darius Garland’s a different player. Jared Allen’s a different player. Evan Mobley’s a different player as well. And Ty Jerome is here and he’s providing a huge lift coming off the bench. So I just think the Cavs protected themselves as best they could given the resources that they had to improve this roster. They protected themselves from the guy or shipped out the guys that they had the most questions about in a playoff environment.

Ethan Sands (42:47.864)

And Chris, I mean, you mentioned him and this is where I’m to end the podcast. mean, Sam Merrill kind of came out of the break and showed exactly what Kenny Atkinson has been talking about all year. He made one shot and he was a plus 26 on the floor tonight. Right? Like he is a guy that when Max Deuce was struggling, Kenny Atkinson was like, all right, Sam, go ahead. Like it’s in vice versa with everything that you say.

Chris (43:01.734)

you

Yeah.

Chris (43:13.893)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (43:16.986)

Deandre Hunter, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill, Max Truth, Isaac Corl, Javante Green, I can go on. Like these are guys that as you mentioned have similar skill sets, but it’s not like questionable anymore. Everybody has an understanding that they can do these things even if it’s one skill set at a high level. Remember the saying Chris, there are some players that do things or one thing great. There’s a lot of

Chris (43:45.231)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (43:46.458)

players around the NBA that do a lot of things well. That’s it. There’s great and then there’s good and then there’s okay. Right? And the Cavs don’t have players on this roster anymore where they’re be like, okay. He’s playing. I can’t go to anybody else because he’s the veteran on this team. He’s been here for X amount of years. This is a team.

Chris (44:10.372)

Or I can’t go to anybody else because I don’t have anybody else that I can trust that I can go to.

Ethan Sands (44:17.654)

Exactly. hundred percent. And I just think Sam Merrill, even though he only made one shot tonight, showed himself against a Brooklyn team that my favorite play from him was in the third quarter when he’s in the paint for some reason, walling up with Jared Allen just has a hand up with two different Brooklyn Nets players going at him and in the paint trying to get an offensive rebound and a put back. And he didn’t allow it.

Right. And obviously he’s six foot four and isn’t the biggest defender. But to me, I’ve said this before. Ty Jerome is very handsy and doesn’t move his hips very well. He gets blown by a couple of times. We saw that a couple of times tonight. Sam Merrill is the exact opposite. He can play defense with his arms behind his back and he’s still going to stay in front of his man. Or he has the quickness to get into a recovery situation and still be able to stifle his man from getting to the basket. I think it’s a

bigger concept when you talk about how these players have different mindsets about the game and what they need to do and as Sam Merrill has talked about in the past, knowing that if his shot isn’t falling, I need to do more on the defensive end to one, stay on the court, two, to earn another contract. And that’s the biggest thing for Sam Merrill and what he has in mind, especially after having another kid. Congratulations to Mr. Merrill.

That’s the biggest thing of all of those things. And Chris, I’m going let you finish the podcast with this. Defensive Player of the Year, Mobley.

Chris (45:56.762)

mean, it’s more of a possibility than it was 24 hours ago. Looked like defensive player of the year was the easiest category for any voter this year. It was a no brainer. It wasn’t even worth doing any deep dives into any kind of research because the answer was Victor Webiniel. Like he was the clear betting favorite. He had the numbers.

He had everything that you looked for in a defensive player of the year profile. And it was going to be a runaway. It was going to be, it was going to be unanimous. It was, um, you take him out of the mix and like all of a sudden as a voter, you’re like, Oh my God, I got to do research on this. I really have to dig into this and figure out what is it that separates Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson Jr. What do I do with Lou Dort? He’s the best.

most impactful, most important defensive player on the best defensive team in the NBA. He shuts down guys like Donovan Mitchell. So what do I do with him? It just becomes, it becomes more of a complicated conversation. It actually becomes a complicated conversation. It actually becomes a debate worth having right now.

And Evan Mobley is right there in that mix. I’ll say this though, like history right now is working against him because most of the defensive player of the year guys, unless you’re doing something just other worldly or you have like another number that just stands out, like leading the NBA in blocks, leading the NBA in stocks.

Majority of the time it comes from a guy on a top five defense in the league and the Cavs aren’t there yet. They were at one point. They fell out of the top 10 at one point. They’re getting closer. They were eighth coming into tonight. They improved that by holding Brooklyn to 97 points. So I think for somebody like Evan, whose numbers, like they don’t stand out the same way.

Chris (48:17.766)

Wemby was just like, oh my God, he’s doing things defensively that we just don’t see every single season. Like Evan is doing things to a high level, sure. But like what’s separating him from Jaren Jackson Jr. Like what’s the case for him over Ludo? You know what I mean? So you start digging into it that kind of way.

And the one thing that I do think because Evan doesn’t have those kinds of numbers supporting him right now, they’re just okay. I think the one thing that he would, that he would greatly benefit from is if the Cavs found a way back into the top five defensively so that you say, well, you know, unicorn like defender, arguably the most important defender on a team with a top five defense.

that has the best record in the NBA or one of the best records in the NBA. That would certainly help his case, but yeah, I mean, like it becomes an actual debate. It becomes an actual conversation now that Wembe is out of the mix and he’s not going to reach the 65 game threshold. And it’s not the way that, that Evan would want it, would want to win Defensive Player of the Year, but

It’s just the reality of the situation. As long as Wemby exists, this might be the only pathway for somebody other than Wemby. I mean, I’m exaggerating obviously, but for somebody other than Wemby, it’s going to be really, really difficult to win Defensive Player of the Year. So if he got it this year, that would be the one that he could put on his resume, on his mantle. And then the rest of them can go to Wemby or something like that.

So it’s going to be interesting. I’ll also say this. That is one of the escalators that Evan has in his contract. A source told me that earlier tonight. And Evan is fully aware that that is part of his contract. And I was actually talking to a player tonight in the locker room. said, I’m aware of every single incentive in my contract. No matter how small it may be, all of us players.

Chris (50:37.1)

are aware of the incentives in our contract. And when one of them is reached, there’s like a mini celebration because it’s money in our pocket. It’s money in our bank account. And we pay attention to these things. So don’t let players fool you when they say, I don’t care about individual accolades. I don’t care about these awards. I don’t care about these certain things that go in about, yes.

Yes, they do. And Evan admitted after the game tonight that one of his goals coming into this year was to be Defensive Player of the Year. And he had absolutely no chance at that 24 hours ago. Now he does.

Ethan Sands (51:21.348)

Yeah, Chris, and to be fair, I don’t think you’re over exaggerating where there’s literal like legends in the NBA that are saying that the floor for Victor Weminyama is to be the best defensive player of all time. and that’s not a crazy take. So I don’t think it’s overreacting for you to say that Victor Weminyama for the remainder of his career should win, can win, defensive player of the year. And that’s no slight Evan Mobley. It’s not. It’s not.

Chris (51:36.111)

Yeah, right.

Chris (51:50.83)

Or Jaren Jackson Jr. or Lou Doerr or any of these guys. I mean, going into every single NBA season, there is a strong possibility that Wembe is the betting favorite for defensive player of year for as long as he plays basketball.

Ethan Sands (52:07.608)

And the only thing that’s really helping, you talked about it, the top five defense in the NBA, Memphis is top seven. The Cavs are top eight, right? So that’s, you keep it a little close and then you talk about the last couple of games of the season. I mean, in the last 10, the Cavs are second in defensive rating. So I think it’s very much possible for Evan Mobley to jump Jaren Jackson Jr. in that conversation. This will be a conversation that we keep an eye

Chris (52:15.696)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (52:36.752)

especially because of super max contract deals and escalators in contracts that we understand are possible for Evan Moley who already just got a maximum contract coming into this season. So Chris, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you using your beautiful voice to get us through 50 minutes of the podcast. But with that being said, that’ll wrap up today.

Chris (52:57.435)

Right.

Chris (53:02.682)

Don’t know how much of it is left at this point, but you know, we, we plow through.

Ethan Sands (53:08.378)

get it all out of the tank just like the cows man they’re gonna get it all out the tank but with that being said that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the wine and gold talk podcast but remember to become a cows insider and interact with Chris me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext there will not be an episode after the New York Knicks game tomorrow but if you want the insight directly to your phone especially

as we get it when it comes to the Cavs players starting, the Cavs players in the lineups, and all these different things. This is why you sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com slash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me.

Chris and Jimmy, this isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.